RW: Well, I think a couple of things... What defines me as a person is the fact that I'm a Christian, a Catholic Christian, and a married man of 25 years this year, living in the United States. What defines me as a professional is that I'm a counselor educator for 35 years, now it's getting close to 40, I guess, specialized in the area of Reality Therapy which I have developed a special interest in and written about 10 books on this topic. That would I think pretty much defines me.

RW: Well, I spent 9 years in the Catholic seminary and 6 years as a clergyman, as a priest, and I resigned many years ago. Nowadays, I have to say I resigned honorably and freely. I think that training really shaped a lot of my thinking, my values, and my attitudes toward people. And it stayed with me after these many decades so I think that has helped me to be the person I am... Also, being married and interacting with my wife has taught me that there's more to life than just myself, in a personal way.

RW: I would just say that that remains my major contribution, expanding the ideas and applying them in areas where they have not been applied before, such as to drugs and alcohol, to family counseling, and cross-culturally.

RW: Well, I think the challenge is the fact that my views are somewhat different about many topics, and what has helped me is reading and studying. Becoming educated helped me realize that there's a lot more to the world than what I read in the conventional literature.

RW: What led me to this is that even as a high school student, before going to college, I really liked to study history, I liked everything about it; and, then, when I became a high school teacher, we taught world history which at that time was western civilization and we broadened it to world cultures in what we called the course, and I liked that. And then I lived in Japan for a year and I lived in Germany for a year, and I think that helped me to become aware of cultures other than my own. And it led me to be interested in that.

RW: No, that was never an issue. I never felt any rejection or marginalization because of that. I didn't feel any of that.

RW: I would say yes, but this is where my thoughts are different than the current thinking in the profession. My experience and my reading lead me to some very different conclusions. So the challenge that I faced was to see the world a little bit differently than the people who write the books on multiculturalism. I've read many, many, books, in fact by actual count in the last seven or eight years, I've read 130 books on culture, race, history of religions, gender, homosexuality, the whole business. And I've come to some very different conclusions and the challenge I face is when I'm active in my own profession, alternative viewpoints are not given any credibility at all.

RW: Well, I think multiculturalism started out as a very noble effort, teaching people to be aware of other cultures, to be accepting, to be not so harsh in judgments, but it just seemed to me that it has become a kind of a doctrinaire, dogmatic, narrow way of looking at the world. For example, there was an article in the American Psychologist recently and part of it was about microaggressions. And these are statements that people make which the authors of the article described as microaggressions, and the simple statements that people make that really are very innocent, or what I would call innocent, and then the message is one of an aggression. Like, where are you from? The implication is that asking this to an Asian person sends the message "you're not American." Now, to me that is absolutely preposterous. That's the kind of literature we have, and I think the other side needs to get an equal opportunity. In other words, in the multicultural world I think there should be more diversity. I think we have one side of the picture that's presented. So that to me is a challenge. I mean I'm not on any crusade about this or anything, but I just would like to see many viewpoints represented.

RW: I think it should stick with its roots. Teaching people about other cultures and recognizing the facts, instead of always finding what's wrong with the Western culture. Why not stress the facts and the fact is that it is a pretty opportunity driven society. You don't hear that in the multicultural literature, you have to read outside of the multicultural literature to really get that impression, because they don't say any of this. For example, a couple of years ago I read every word in an issue on racism of the Journal of Counseling and Development. I read every word carefully in that issue of the journal, including the ads, and there was one statement that said, things are better than they used to be. A grudging concession to the fact that things aren't quite the way they were in the 40s or 50s. I just think when we teach people that we're doing them a disservice.

RW: To be fair, I think to be fair in presenting all viewpoints and all data. Otherwise, I fear for our profession, that it will die and it will be a deserved death in 20 or 30 years, so I just think that that's a possibility, but I don't know, I'm not a prophet of doom, but I think that, ultimately, people will see the broader picture and I think there are signs of that already.

RW: Well, like you're interviewing me. You may not have known you were getting into this. I'm maybe the only writer on this that has ever quoted some of the people that I've quoted. For me, to be competent culturally I think I need to have read three books, at least, obviously more, but three books. One is called Race and Culture: A Worldview, one is called Conquests and Cultures, and one is called Migrations and Cultures. These are all written by a very politically incorrect man, Thomas Sowell. A brilliant scholar, but you'll never see him quoted and it's unfortunate because he's a brilliant man. And I don't like everything he says, it's not a question of whether you like it, it's a question of here is a scholar who is ignored in our field. Abigail Thernstrom. I'm going to drop some names Carlos, Abigail Thernstrom's books, she's on the President's Committee on Civil Rights, and she's written a book called Black and White in America, One Nation Undivided, and so these are just a few... I don't care whether people accept these or not, I think there should be discussion of them. You know what I mean?

I think dialogue is what I'm pushing for, but I don't see that happening. There are some glimmers, as I said, but I think people are willing to hear all sides. Everyone I believe has very good intentions; it's not that, it's just that I think I'd like to see the field broadened a little bit. Otherwise I fear for it.

RW: I think we need more data to validate what we do. I think we had a setback with this Virginia Tech massacre, and I fear I'm concerned that there's going to be more legislation coming out of that.

RW: I think that maybe confidentiality will be reviewed; I don't know exactly how, but I would expect legislation to emerge from that. What was your question again?

RW: Yeah, well, I think that would be the future, but to me the counseling and the helping professions is the most noble field, just about the most noble field that anyone could enter. And I think that we need to keep idealism alive with our students and be teaching them about the exciting work that they do to help people. And it is an exciting field and they're doing something very significant.

I tell my students a couple of things. I say number one, when you impact somebody and you help them become less bigoted or you help them learn to handle situations, or you help break the cycle of abuse, you're not only influencing them, but you're influencing their children, and their children, and what we do cascades down through history. So to me that's a very noble calling that we have. And I think that connects with the status of our profession. It's a very wonderful profession.

And the second thing I try to get across is, look you are not... do not believe that you are racist, and do not believe that you are victims. There is a little bit of both in all of us, of course, maybe, I don't know about all people. But I mean we're human beings and so we're going to be subject to these things. But don't label yourself either way because you live up to that if you do. How you see yourself is how you will live. So that's my little preaching I do for students.

RW: I attended a program put on by the Cincinnati Police Department for mental health professionals about a year ago, 12 nights, and it was an excellent program created to get mental health professionals to work together more closely. And one of the policemen asked the question, do you know how many policemen are mugged when they go through parking lots in civilian clothes? When they're in parking lots or when they're in parking garages and so on. And the people said, well probably just as many as anybody else, proportionally. He said, none, none. They seem to have a way of communicating I am not a victim, and most potential muggers avoid them. I thought that was a fascinating statement and I thought you can maybe generalize from that... it's a bit of a leap, I know, but I think if we see ourselves as victims, you know, that that's not going to help. And it's not to blame the person, it's we need to see ourselves as contributors; that to me is part of the work of counseling, is to help to see their potential.

RW: Change or what?

RW: Oh yeah, that's a good point, I've thought a lot about this. What I would like to see is more emphasis on family. You know, the American Counseling Association's Pre-convention Learning Institute at one time, a couple of years ago, has about 16 questions on the evaluation form. I forget how many but almost half were about multiculturalism; none about family. And yet, look how important family is in our society. You can see the tremendous breakdown of the family and its devastating effects that breakdown has in society. For example, most of the people in prison come from very dysfunctional families. So I would like to see the profession emphasize the role of the family and develop more tools for family counseling, which is of course a very important cornerstone in our work as counselors, but it seems to me we need to somehow integrate that into our teaching a little bit more.

RW: Yes it is, Carlos. Well one of the reasons is that after I finished my doctorate, in 1971, I went to different seminars and workshops put on by the various leaders in the field. I went to behaviorist workshops, I went to Adlerian... in fact I went to the first Rational Emotive Behavioral Therapy conference in Chicago, and I liked it, but one that I went to was a Reality Therapy workshop put on by a friend, or who turned out to be a friend later, in Cleveland, Ohio, and I liked it more than any of the others. It just made more sense to me. So I started doing the training programs which he said were mostly held in Los Angeles and they were actually conducted by Glasser himself. One year I went out there four times. Finally he said who is this guy that keeps showing up? So he decided to let me lead a group, and then I just kept moving, and then became his director of training, which I have been doing now for 19 years.

RW: I happened to be in the right place at the right time, Carlos. But my wife always sighs when I say that because she says nothing happens by accident.

RW: Yeah, I think that's true.

RW: Okay. Teach about reality therapy... by the way my thoughts about multiculturalism there, you can disagree 180◦ with me and still do good reality therapy. So I mean there's a lot of room for disagreement here, and I'm the first to say that I'm not necessarily absolutely right or anything, I'm just saying as one viewpoint.

Okay, so about reality therapy, I would like to teach that central to the effective use of it is that we choose our behavior. But that's a statement that needs a lot of distinction and a lot of unpacking before people can carry it. People might carry it too far. It means we have more control over what we do than we thought we did. So we talk about choices that people can make, no matter what circumstances they're in. And not matter how constricting the outside world is to them, whether it's family or culture, or bigotry or whatever it may be, they have some choices and so we're going to try to work with those choices, not to ignore the other part, not to ignore systemic interventions. In fact when we use this in school it's practically, I would say, 75% systemic to changing the structure and the atmosphere of the school. So that people can make better choices. But that's a central part of the system, that we choose our behavior and that ... well, that we do it for 5 reasons. One is self-preservation, one is to get them belonging, one is so we can have some control over our lives, and inner control, one is fun, and one is freedom. These are the human needs that we say we have. And you can see how there could be a lot of threats from the outside to fulfilling those. But we would try to help people change their environment and then also change their own choices if their choices are unsatisfactory to them. So that's what I would suggest is crucial to reality therapy.

RW: Yeah, he doesn't even know his cholesterol. He is a human being with a very strong view about this and I'm the opposite. I want to know everything. There are certain things I don't want to know, like if I were to get cancer, I personally would not want to know how long I had to live. I don't want the doctor to give me a stop watch. But I would want to know that I had cancer. And I don't think it has anything to do with the Reality Therapy. These are our personal viewpoints.

RW: Yes, gladly. I wanted to go into that... especially cross-cultural counseling. I think it is really quite relevant to many cultures, and I base this not just on my ideas of those cultures, but on the people. I have personally taught it and I have personally introduced it to about 6 or 7 countries and it's not my job to colonize people or anything like that, but if they want to learn it, we can teach it to them, and then they adapt it. For example my friend Masaki Kakitani is an instructor in Japan, I helped to train him and teach him but he has taken it much further, and has adapted it to his work in Japan. And so that's an example. Another illustration of this is Korea, Rose-Inza Kim is one of the main instructors there in Korea, in fact the best research on Reality Therapy is coming out of Korea. It was the first female dean at Sogong University in Seoul, Korea, and now she's retired from that position, but she's still working plenty hard. But she just told me the other day I saw her in Seattle that she and others have facilitated 350 doctoral dissertations and master's thesis on reality therapy. So I just see that as evidence of the fact that it is extended beyond the conventional system where it originated. At the conference in 2006, in Jersey City, there were people from every continent in the world, except Antarctica. I always say I hope to go to Antarctica someday. But I only want to go in the summer.

RW: I think that this is one of the one of the marvelous characteristics of this system, and there are other systems that have many cross cultural applications. The Milton Erickson Institute, I go to their conferences a lot and there are over 120 Milton Erickson Institutes around the world. I'm not making any outlandish claim here, but I just think it is applicable and the people think it's applicable, so if they want to learn it, we teach them, and they go from there. I mean they take the ball and run with it. And the best thing I figure we can do with people from other cultures when they learn something like this is stay out of their way if they know what they're doing.

What I mean is I don't want to approach them as some know-it-all and we're going to work with these primitive people and enlighten them, I don't want that message to come across.

RW: Yes, that's exactly right. One of the things in Reality Therapy is that we talk about what people want. So we try to ask them what they want. Well that question, what do you want, is kind of intrusive in Japan so I'm told. I'm basing it on what Masaki told me, and so they translate that into softer, maybe a little more indirect language. And when it comes back into English it means, what are you seeking? What are you looking for? Which to my Western ear doesn't sound very much different, but apparently it is when it comes across in Japan. So I mean these are little subtleties that an outsider can miss.

RW: Yes, I had a friend who was going to Korea to teach, and he kept calling me and saying, what do I do there, because he'd never spent a lot of time there. What about this and what about that, and what about this and what about that? And finally I said, you know what, when it all comes down to it, use your ears and your mouth in the proportion in which God gave them to you. Chances are you're going to be okay, there's no guarantee, but you're certainly going to be a lot better off than if you run your mouth too much. You are never too far wrong if you just listen.

RW: Well I think that the only thing I'd say is what I've already said, that it is very adaptable from what people say, I'm not just saying this from myself, but very adaptable to cultures around the world. We've even taught it in the Middle East and now I must say that takes much more adaptation there, but I think it's quite adaptable and useful in any culture apparently. I don't want to say that with absolute certainty. You know what I mean, but I'd say that's one thing I'd like to say about it. Another thing I'd like to say about it is that it is growing in it's acceptance, I believe; and a third thing I'd like to say is something I've not mentioned in the past, but up till now I don't know if this is something you're interested in, but we're here ... The Glasser Institute is initiating a program in which the Institute will pay for training for tenure tract professors to go through some training as a cohort, to go all the way from the beginning up to certification. And it would be to their advantage to do some research in this area in Reality Therapy, and their training would be paid for. So it's a very nice gesture.

RW: I would like to see more research in the profession that validates what we do. I'd like to see it gain the respect that it deserves. I'd like to see the profession appeal to the idealism of the students and the good heartedness of the students, rather than teaching them that they're either victims or oppressors, which is maybe not said in those words but sometimes it's the implication. I'd like to see the profession talk about the glories of Western civilization rather than there's always the negative part of it. There are plenty negative parts of it, we know that. But I think we've made that point. So I'd like to see that without of course getting arrogant or anything like that about it. So those are some things I would like to see us do in the future.

RW: I would say read, read, read, not only in the field, certainly in our field, but read outside of our field. Read some people that I mentioned earlier. Read and study, and get a broad picture of culture and sociology, and so on; not a narrow picture where we just emphasize the negative parts. Read books by Abigail Thernstrom, and Thomas Sowell, and Shelby Steele, and all these people that we never see quoted in our literature. I think that's unfortunate, but that's my suggestion, to study widely.

RW: No Carlos, I think you really covered it, you're very thorough.