JC: I began teaching high school for 4 years, and at that time developed an interest in counseling and pursued a doctorate while I was teaching high school. I then moved to teaching at a community college and became interested in personal growth through group work. After getting my doctorate, I then moved to teaching at the university level (from 1967 to the present). First I spent 5 years working in a counseling center (mainly doing individual and group counseling) and also teaching psychology courses to teachers. My main work was in teacher education. Then I moved to California State University at Fullerton and began teaching counseling-type courses for human services students. Most of my courses were self-awareness groups, theory and practice of counseling, ethics, and introduction to counseling. I began writing a book for every course I taught, mainly because I wanted to have a collection of materials I could share with my own students. I basically always tried to follow my interests and my passions, and that moved me in productive directions. I have always loved teaching and interaction with students. Since 1980 I have been doing workshops and presenting at various state conferences, as well as teaching at various universities. At age of 71, I find my professional work highly meaningful and what keeps me motivated is the possibility of being able to influence the field, even in slight ways.

JC: It would be fair to say that I have multiple identities professionally. Teacher is one of the enjoyable ones, workshop leader, author, coauthor, and mentor of students. Those would be the ones that stand out in my mind. I'm also a person who tries to follow his interests and strive to do my best in my professional commitments.

JC: I certainly think that the person and the professional are intertwined and it's very hard for me to separate out functions or even roles. Right now we are revising three books and this is linked with my teaching endeavors. For example, when I teach ethics I may be talking about things that we were just working on in our book, especially the revisions and the updates. As you can see, what I do is very much interconnected and not separate; the writing isn't in one quadrant and the teaching in a different sphere.

JC: Thinking about ethical issues and talking with colleagues has been a valuable way to explore ethics. My colleagues and I began to write about ethics based on our work in facilitating therapeutic groups. We would spend many hours before and after our groups in talking about what we were learning, which gave rise to wanting to write a textbook in ethics.

Early in my years at California State University at Fullerton (in 1972) I developed a weeklong residential group course that was held in a mountain setting. My colleagues and I offered this course for 25 years (both here and abroad), and those of us who co-facilitated these groups found them to be of immense value both personally and professionally. Most of what we learned about the power of groups came from being a part of these personal exploration groups. Our underlying philosophy was the belief that we have choices and can take steps to redesign our lives. Once group members identified early decisions and their faulty beliefs surrounding these decisions, they were in a position to replace self-limiting core beliefs with functional beliefs. In essence, the intensive group evolved into a dynamic community that encouraged interpersonal honesty and gave the participants permission to be themselves.

My colleagues and I learned a great deal about how healthy relationships can be established when people feel safe enough to explore their lives in a therapeutic community. We did our best to provide boundaries and to create a climate of safety that permitted the group participants to take risks that they would normally not take. Sometimes the participants shared with us that they experienced the group as an ideal family. In this new family, they felt safe, trusted one another, expressed themselves without fear of being judged, felt accepted and protected, and were encouraged to be themselves instead of trying to be what others expected of them.

In short, the experience of conducting intensive groups gave my colleagues and me ample material for reflection and discussion. We learned a great deal about ethical ways of practicing and effective group counseling through this work. Of course, experience alone is not sufficient. Reflection on what we are experiencing is critical.

JC: These are good examples but there are current people too. We recently went to a conference in brief therapy and I had an opportunity to see and be in a couple of workshops with Erving Polster, a Gestalt therapist. Both he and his late wife, Miriam Polster, have been very influential in my thinking about counseling. The works of people such as Albert Ellis and Carl Rogers have been a significant influence in my thinking. There are many more well-known figures, past and present, that have contributed to my development as a counseling professional. In addition to this, there are many colleagues and friends in the profession who have had a tremendous impact on my professional development. Without doubt, the most significant person that has influenced me, both personally and professionally, is my wife, friend, and colleague, Marianne. This is true in the past as well as the present.

JC: I don't think we become finished products. Both personally and professionally I view a journey as being more than simply arriving at a destiny.

JC: In terms of the field at large it's probably our writings and that may be one of our most significant contributions. When I refer to "ours" I am thinking of Marianne and myself. We have five books together and I have another ten books alone or with other coauthors. Through our writings, especially books, we reach a larger audience. Even though I have not met most of the students personally who are reading our books, those who are using our books on ethics, theory of counseling, and group process have a connection with us. I consider this a most important contribution. On the other hand, when I meet my own students or people that attend my workshops I believe I am able to make a significant contribution, but in a smaller scale.

Another accomplishment that I value is teaching and doing workshops. Although I retired from teaching on a full-time basis from California State University at Fullerton in 2000, I am still very active in teaching part time. I still teach two courses at Cal State Fullerton every fall. Every spring I teach or co-teach a course in group counseling for some university or institute for a week as an intensive workshop at some place in the United States or abroad. I give a good number of workshops and keynote talks at state, regional, and national counseling conferences. With my writing schedule and teaching I would say I am still involved in meaningful full-time work. I just have the opportunity to create my own schedule rather than being linked to a single university setting.

JC: When I began writing in the mid 1970s I wanted to help students better understand the various theories of counseling and how to apply them to practice. I mainly wrote for classes that I was teaching and for material to give to my own students. I just wanted to share my thoughts and without even thinking of a book I wrote chapters for students in my theories and techniques of counseling courses. A publisher came by and asked me if was doing any writing and I handed him the handouts which were like chapters on each of the theories, and that became Theory and Practice of Counseling and Psychotherapy. So I think the bottom line would be following your interests for direction. Dare to dream and if there are barriers, see them as stepping stones to success rather than as blocks to achieving your goals.

JC: Well, meeting with failure at different points was a challenge. What is crucial is to view mistakes as something we can learn from rather than as a sign of failure. One thing that stands out is how difficult statistics was for me when I was in my doctoral program. I had to take a couple of statistics courses, and I must say I was allergic to math and statistics. I had a phobia when it came to being able to meet the statistics requirement. One of my advisors, Dr. Jane Warters, at the University of Southern California, was extremely supportive and gave me practical tips on how I could meet the challenge. Though it was tough and I had migraines after each stats class, I managed to pull through. What a shame if I had let this requirement, and my fear of failing the statistics requirement, block my progress toward earning a doctorate in counseling. By the way, one person that helped me get through my statistics class was Jim Johnson, a custodian at the high school where I was teaching at the time. Each afternoon he would put math problems on the board in my class and I had the homework of solving these problems. Let me add that Jim and I are in frequent contact today. In the 1980s he thought it was time that I bought myself a computer to facilitating writing and revising books. Until that time I relied on a yellow pad and pen and tediously typed everything on a portable typewriter. Today Jim Johnson continues to be my McIntosh mentor and whenever I encounter problems with my computer (which is frequently) I call him and implore his help. And to think, that relationship began 48 years ago and endures to this day. The lesson I want to get across is that we should not be hesitant to ask for help when we need it, as we can all use assistance in reaching our goals.

JC: First of all, it wasn't in school that I first learned about the multicultural aspects of counseling. When I got my doctorate I didn't have any courses in the multicultural field and, in fact, this was not even a word used. We had two theories, Rogers and Williamson, or nondirective and directive counseling. It was largely in the mid 80's, when we hired some diverse faculty at the university were I was teaching that I was introduced to the importance of considering the context in which people live. I became friends with several of our faculty who had a social work perspective and a multicultural orientation. We talked extensively about various aspects of training human services workers and approaches to helping. I think they really began to open my eyes to paying attention to diversity. Also workshops conducted in other countries helped me see a different perspective of things. I think that conducting workshops and training mental health professionals in places such as Mexico, Ireland, and Korea was extremely useful for us in terms of learning about how culture influences counseling practice. This has helped me to see that there are some fundamental similarities among different cultures, as well as differences. It also demonstrated to me that working with people of various cultures requires practitioners to adapt their methods to the unique needs of the clients with whom they are working.

During these trips I would wonder how our book Group Process and Practice would work in different cultures. To our surprise, we found that we could use a lot of our ideas and the basic concepts that we write about in our books, but these ideas and approaches need to fit the cultural context. Some modifications are needed to fit their own cultural needs.

In addition, the writings of many of my colleagues have been very influential in developing a multicultural perspective. For example, reading the article that you wrote in the Journal of Counseling and Development about reframing the DSM with Allen Ivey and other colleagues was important. Patrick, Marianne, and I read it and we included this new information in our discussion of assessment and diagnosis in our ethics book.

JC: Well, I think that both of those perspectives are getting more attention. I just got the journal, Counseling Psychologist (January 2009) and there is a whole issue devoted to social justice issues. In this issue of the journal, there is also a fine piece on Allen Ivey, who is viewed as a "crusader for multiculturalism and social justice." Allen is certainly a pioneer in the field of multiculturalism and social justice, and through his writings and workshops, he continues to influence counselor educators, students, and practitioners to make culture a central part of their work. In our chapter on ethical issues in working in the community in our ethics text, we recently added more discussion on the social justice and advocacy competencies. We are giving these topics more emphasis. So I think there is a lot of work being done but more needs to be done. When it comes to the role of a counselor there are many programs that do not prepare students for assuming alternate roles (such as advocate, adviser, consultant, mentor) to the traditional roles that counselors have played for so many years. Students in counseling might reflect on some of these questions: "What are you going to do when you actually go into a community?" "How are you going to reach out to people besides waiting for them to seek you out in your office?" "What might your role be as an advocate or a community change agent?" We are giving more attention to these issues in all of our own books.

JC: As counselor educators, we can make greater efforts to challenge our students to think a little outside their comfort zone. This might include the issues of race, gender, and other multicultural dimensions, that impact the practice of counseling. I think that some of the leaders in the field may have made a mistake of being very harsh and blatantly criticizing saying, "All you Whites are racist". Such rhetoric may turn off people, rather than challenge them to be open, reflective, and to strive to make changes in their attitudes and behaviors.

JC: Well, the first thing we need to do is create a sense of safety in our classroom. We need to encourage people to take the risk of engaging in an honest discussion about their attitudes and experiences pertaining to various aspects of diversity. If there is a resistance in the class maybe we have a dialogue and we talk about it. It is important for our students to develop a trusting relationship with us and know that we won't use power to intimidate them. Maybe some faculty members, who are in power, downgraded a student in the past because he or she didn't think like they do. I think it's critical that as faculty members, we have open dialogue with our students where we can be vulnerable too, and that we talk about our own experiences and encourage students to do that too.

JC: I think by in large my students in both programs, undergraduates in human services and masters in the counseling program, seem very open to thinking about ways they want to make a difference as a professional helper. I think it's always good to have an openness to looking at issues as they come up, particularly when students go into their internship and they start actually seeing clients and they may start struggling because of language differences or different worldviews. That is the time when it's very important to be willing to say, "I'm really at a loss with this client because I'm not quite sure I know where to go from here." It is at this time that I find students generally receptive to ideas and suggestions.

JC: This requires a global answer. At least where I go I usually find a lot of interest in our profession. Of course, this may be because I'm invited to those places to teach people about group counseling or talk about the importance of the person and the professional, and how they are intertwined. So I'm seeing a limited segment and it is hard to generalize. When we present workshops in other countries, we have found how important it is to think of ways to share of perspectives on counseling practice and at the same time to encourage those in our audience to think of ways that they might adapt our approaches to their unique culture and settings, if they were interested in integrating our ideas into their practices. I have also found that in addition to the content that we present our way of being with the participants in a workshop is what is crucial. I am thinking of our workshops on group counseling that we have presented in Korea, Hong Kong, Mexico, and Ireland and notice that our ability to establish a relationship with them is crucial. People seem much more open to considering ideas when they feel respected. In these workshops, people noticed and commented on how Marianne and I were with each other and how we related to them as an audience. This teaches me that it is not so much what we say, but it is our relationship with our client, or with our audience, or workshop participants, or students, that is the key. If we approach clients or any group as experts who have nothing to learn, then we cannot expect a successful encounter. I think if we go in more as ourselves and are open to their points of view, along with being open to learning from them, and address their questions respectfully, we'll likely find success.

JC: Absolutely. We must have content too, obviously. But I think our approach to teaching and counseling fits the research of psychotherapy showing that it's not the theory or technique that one uses, but the client variables and the relationship variables that matter the most. Those are more important than a theory or a set of techniques we use.

JC: Exactly, evidenced based practice is a current trend in the counseling field. I really liked Scott Miller's presentation that I attended recently where he emphasized the importance of practice-based evidence, rather than evidence-based practice. During his presentation he talked about "supershrinks" and what distinguished them from mediocre therapists. Miller's main message is that its not the technique a therapist uses, but the relationship and the client variables that matter. Along with Scott Miller, John Norcross and his colleagues have written extensively about the complex nature of evidence-based practice. These researchers make the point that there are many aspects of treatment — the therapy relationship, the therapist's personality and therapeutic style, the client, and environmental factors — all of which are vital contributors to the success of psychotherapy and all of which must be taken into account in the treatment process. Norcross and his colleagues argue for the centrality of the therapeutic relationship as a determinant of therapy outcomes. They add, however, that the client actually accounts for more of the treatment outcome than either the relationship or the method employed. I think there are implications of these research findings of what makes for a positive difference in the therapeutic relationship for teaching students and trainees in the counseling field. Although the content we present is important, we cannot overlook the relationship variable.

JC: I would like to see more attention given to some neglected variables like the self-care of the therapist. I think John Norcross and James Guy have done a good amount of work in this area. They have co-authored a book on self-care of the therapist, entitled "Leaving It at the Office: A Guide to Psychotherapist Self-Care". I think there are many people in our profession that take care of other people, but they're not very good at taking care of themselves. I think I would definitely like to see more being done on that score. It is unrealistic to think that we can eliminate stress from our lives, but we can learn how to recognize and deal with both the internal and external sources of stress. Either stress controls us, or we control our stress. Counselors are especially vulnerable to stress, since many demands are placed on them in their work setting. Hopefully, counselors will focus on what they can DO and what is possible to accomplish, rather than worrying about all that they cannot do or accomplish. If we do not manage stress, the eventual result is burnout, which can lead to counselor impairment. I would hope that counselors realize that self-care is an ethical mandate, not a luxury. Simply put, we cannot afford not to take care of ourselves, for if we neglect ourselves and do not practice self-care, eventually our clients will not receive benefit from us. If we are drained and depleted, we will not have much to give to those who want our help. I think that a central ethical issue is taking care of ourselves so that we will be able provide our clients with the best we have to offer.

JC: I have found that students who are becoming counselors sometimes look for concrete answers to potential ethical dilemmas they will encounter. When I teach ethics I encourage students to think critically and to realize that ethical practice is very complex and defies simplistic solutions. I think students can get a lot from reading various books in ethics and by talking with fellow students and professors about ethical concerns. Fortunately, new counselors do not have to face making ethical decisions alone. Hopefully, they will respect the value of consulting whenever they have questions or concerns about ethics. They can learn a good deal by reviewing case examples that are based on the various codes of ethics.

Here is a message I hope to give to students in my classes about becoming an ethical practitioner — You are responsible for your own ethical practice; however, it is important that you avoid choosing any set of ethical views merely because it "feels right" to you. Codes of ethics provide general standards, but these are not sufficiently explicit to deal with every situation. It is often difficult to interpret ethics codes, and opinions differ over how to apply them in specific cases. Consequently, you will encounter many situations that demand the exercise of sound judgment to further the best interests of your clients. In all cases the welfare of the client demands that you become familiar with the guiding principles of the ethics codes and the accepted standards of practice. In the end, always err in favor of the long-term benefits of your clients. You do not have to solve every ethical dilemma you encounter by yourself. It is always a good policy to seek consultation from trusted peers and colleagues, or from a supervisor. You can learn much by engaging with others in a discussion of pressing ethical concerns. Regardless of how many years you are in the profession, you can profit from consultations as a way to refine your thinking about ethical practice.

From my perspective, it is critical that counseling students and professionals are prepared to examine and think about ethical topics and concerns throughout their professional life. Even if counselors resolve some of these issues at the initial stage of their development as a counselor, these topics are likely to take on new dimensions as they gain experience. Many students burden themselves with the expectation that they should resolve all possible issues before they begin to practice. However, the definition and refinement of such concerns is an evolutionary process that requires an open and self-critical attitude.

JC: I would like to see more attention given to the issue of values and how to work with values when they differ from our own. Values could encompass a wide range of issues like spirituality and religion differences, differences in how people see the world, or gender differences.

JC: There is now widespread interest in the topic of spiritual and religious beliefs — both the counselor's and the client's — and how such beliefs might be incorporated in therapeutic relationships. Evidence for this interest is found in the increased number of books on the subject and articles in professional journals on the role of spirituality in counseling, as well as the number of presentations on this topic at professional conferences. In many ways, addressing matters such as spirituality is very much a part of identifying and exploring with clients their cultural background and how it is influencing their behavior. The spiritual dimension is part of the multicultural context that we need to consider in our work.

From my perspective, spirituality is a factor that needs to be addressed if it is a concern of the client. Whatever one's particular view of spirituality, it is a force that can help our clients find a purpose for living. There are many paths toward fulfilling spiritual needs, and it is not the counselor's task to prescribe any particular pathway. If, during the assessment process or later in counseling, clients give an indication that they are concerned about any of their beliefs or practices, this is a useful dimension for exploration. The key here is that counselor's remain finely tuned to what the client wants to explore and the purpose for which he or she sought therapy.

Traditionally, when a client comes to a therapist with a problem, the therapist explores all the factors that contributed to the development of the problem. Even though a client may no longer consider himself or herself to be religious or spiritual, a background of involvement in religion should be explored as part of the client's history. These beliefs may have been factors in the development of the problem, and thus could be part of the solution. I believe that it is essential to understand and respect the client's religious beliefs and to include such beliefs in their assessment and treatment practice, if such beliefs are significant to the client.

JC: I hope to be able to work within the framework of my client's value system. I see it as crucial that I am sensitive to my clients' needs and that they feel free to talk about areas they want to explore. I expect myself to be open and nonjudgmental to my clients who may be going through some life transition, for their spiritual beliefs can be a major source of strength as they make crucial life decisions.

JC: I think that we cannot rule out our own personal experiences as counselors. We will want to monitor how our life experiences are influencing our interventions with our clients. For example, if as counselors, we have some resentment or a vendetta against organized religion because of our background, we may avoid these issues and may not be open to a client wanting to include religion in her or his counseling.

JC: I think of clients as the experts in their own lives. If we listen to what they tell us, we can get valuable information of how to most productively follow their lead and to facilitate a process that will enable them to attain their goals.

JC: One of the trends I have some concern about is the use of technology and online programs for both delivering services to clients and in teaching students about counseling. I know several of my colleagues use online formats and one teaches ethics as an online course. It may just be that I'm rigid and it's hard for me to do things online. It troubles me though that we may be moving away from interpersonal contact and more to impersonal ways. It is hard to think that everything is done online and about all this computer technology available today. More and more classes are being taught that way and even people are taking workshops that way. If it's learning factual material it might be convenient that way. I think there is no substitute for having a live class where I can actually see people and they can dialogue with me. I'm kind of troubled by the whole mechanization of our field and I think that it needs to be tempered.

JC: You mention two other areas that I wrote about, brief therapy and theory integration. I think brief therapy has a place and I would certainly be supportive of that in some settings, but I'm concerned by the manage care view: "We'll only give you six visits and that's it." Maybe there is a challenge for us to think, "How can I be as brief as possible but open to ongoing counseling if needed." I believe we can always think, "How can I make my interventions so that they would be briefer?" A similar trend that you wrote about in your recent article in the Journal of Counseling and Development was about reframing diagnosis. Many of our students have to take a separate course on diagnosis and they are expected when they go into an agency to establish a diagnosis according to the DSM IV in the first session. Maybe it's not a question of "should you use diagnosis or not," rather "how do you use a diagnostic framework in a culturally sensitive, ethical, and appropriate way."

JC: In a recent article in Counseling Today called the top five, by Mark Riser, I was asked to offer some advice to graduate students in the process of becoming counselors. Here are some thoughts I would encourage graduate students to reflect upon:

JC: At the upcoming ACA conference in Charlotte I'll be talking to graduate students about how to get more out of your graduate program and whether there is a life after graduate school. One of the things I ask students to reflect on is the kind of person they believe can make a difference. It's important for students and professionals to raise questions such as: "What kind of person do I want to become to make a difference to whatever client or group I'll be working with?" "How can I work on myself so that I'll be a more effective professional?" A message that I want to leave with students is not to be immobilized by the fear of making mistakes. Rather than trying to avoid all mistakes I think what is crucial is to challenge our fears and not be stopped by these fears. It is important that we learn from our mistakes and not to continue repeating them. Once in a while I get a student that is a great student but they are so afraid that if they don't get a 100% then they are failures. I like to get them beyond that point by challenging their faulty thinking about failure being fatal.

JC: Stan was a former student in the undergraduate human service program at my university in the late 90's. I invited him (Jamie) to co-teach the theories of conflict class in 2000. He became my "Stan" and for every theory I demonstrated how I would work with him. He went on to get his doctorate in counseling psychology, and now he is in the field. Although I was one of his mentors, he contributed to my development, and we both appreciate our relationship. I've asked him to put some writing together for a couple of our books. For example, he wrote a piece on working with the elderly in a group for our group counseling book. For a book on clinical supervision, Jamie wrote about his perspective on supervision from a student's vantage point. The point is that many of our students eventually become our colleagues. I think what our profession is about is bringing people aboard, having dialogue with them, and become co-partners with them. This is what keeps me going and excited about my work.